The fourth ODI

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Rather than wait till after the match to get the conversation going, we thought we’d open up the comments for ‘in-play’ discussion on the fourth ODI between England and India at Edgbaston. All thoughts and observations very welcome, as the match progresses. At the time of writing England have lost two early wickets, but there’s a long way to go yet.

Do get stuck in, and thanks.

80 comments

  • Pleased to see Ballance and Ali. Surprised Tredwell stood down but interested to see how Gurney does. Would have rested Jimmy and played Gurney instead.

  • After copping a ball on the toe myself Sunday I’m feeling more sympathy than I normally would for Bell today.

    Shame Ballance has missed the chance to showcase his wares

  • Can understand why they didn’t play 2 spinners against India – but the batting is that bad that it doesn’t much matter who the bowlers are!

  • “Pling, clang, plunk, phlak, clong, clack, fdang, thump”…oh fuck…”

    The audio feed from Cook’s latest dynamic England innings.

  • On paper I much prefer this line up – the bowling looks stronger for sure, of course executing a top class ODI innings is (so far at least) still proving elusive so this matters not.

    At least after getting a hiding in this series there’s time for a re-think before World Cup.

  • We of course don’t want to rush to judgement before both teams have had a bat…however this is bad whichever way you slice it baring a miracle recovery from the players at the crease.

    Can Cook feasibly continue in any shape way or form after this fiasco?

    Lest we forget, we broke the hitherto perfectly fine Ashes schedule to prepare for the world cup and we’re served up this for the third match in a row…nicely done.

    • The problem Mike is that the ECB has massively painted itself into a corner when it comes to Cook. If they drop him now it will be seen as an admission that they have been foolish and stubborn, a fatal combination. Unfortunately it is going to catch up with them at some time, probably too late for the World Cup.

      • I quite agree

        What a ridiculous situation. Put ego aside you idiots and do the decent thing, here’s the metaphorical revolver, now go take a walk into the woods and put yourselves, and us, out of your misery.

        On a side note, Mitch Marsh is going berserk, he’s just smitten Steyn for 3 consecutive 6s.

      • But the ECB has appointed David Brent as coach. And remember what Brent said……

        “If you want the rainbow, you’ve gotta put up with the rain – do you know which philosopher said that? Dolly Parton. And people say she’s just a big pair of tits.”

        The good news is the Sky WASP is predicting 243 as the total. Which is 13 ahead of the laptop score. So we are improving!

      • But, Cookie’s already SAID to Swannie he is captaining in the world cup, he’s got first dibs, it’s unfair to change things now, I feel a stroppy tantrum coming on Paulie, something has to be done about this

  • It’s a bit odd that Buttler is fairly far down the batting order. Why not bat him at four, or higher? Shouldn’t the logic be that the gun batsmen face as many balls as possible?

    • Maxie – you are looking at this all wrong. The England game plan is for the top five to build a platform through steady partnerships playing risk-free cricket and then for the biffers to come in and whack it in the last 10 overs. If the plan was good enough for Leatherbum, it is good enough for Cook and Moores.

  • “The brain is a fantastic bit of kit!” quote from P .Moores on BBC site whilst defending the laptop……There are quite a few obvious riposts to that particular nugget!!
    Call me old fashioned, but, I think the outstanding coach of his generation should coach this lot outstandingly on how to play spin!!

    • He is just like a cross between David Brent & Chauncey Gardener.

      Chauncey Gardener driving in a car for the first time………. “This is just like television, only you can see much further.”

  • He just talks complete nonsense, all the time.

    He might be great in the nets and on the field, but his press utterances are painful. No wonder they were hiding him at times in the summer.

    Great post on Twitter earlier by Alternative Cricket, Moeen Ali’s last ODI knock 55 off of 59 in a total 303 in a winning cause, next game dropped for Cook.

    Cook is the anchor dragging this team down. Too much bad juju. He’s basically a shit magnet in ODI cricket. Get rid.

  • Moeen continuing to confound his critics. So comfortable, flexible and positive against the spin. Refreshing. Won’t be surprised if he has some success with the ball too.

    He is fast making himself undroppable. Get in!

    • To quote one Cricinfo reader

      “This is disgraceful from Moeen, showing no respect for the traditions of English limited overs cricket! Where are the leaves, the blocks, the cheap dismissal? Scoring quickly is not how we wish to play our limited overs cricket. I do not expect this from a player representing England and I hope Cook and Moores discipline him for these egregious transgressions.”

  • “The brain is a fantastic bit of kit”.
    Is’nt it a pity that the England Cricket Coach doe not have access to one.

  • I’m really disappointed that I’ll be too busy this afternoon to watch the England bowlers gallantly try and rescue this match from the ditch into which most of the batsmen have flung it. But then, as bowlers, they know that a couple of bad overs mean being dropped. As a batsman, it’s proof of your long term class, apparently.

  • Will be interesting to see what happens after the inevitable 4-0 defeat in this series. I can’t see Cook’s position as ODI player or captain being tenable in that event.
    But as much as a one-day liability as Cook is, he’s only one player. How do you explain the form of the rest? The alternative captain can’t buy a run. The rest of the middle order can’t play spin and keeps finding daft ways to get out.
    Cook’s place is indefensible – but the malaise goes deeper than him.

    • I’ve just borrowed Marty’s De Lorean and took a quick time trip forward to the after match interview.
      Alistair your comments:
      ” It’s been a bit of a difficult day and we have not covered ourselves in much glory. But we will go away from this and learn. We will study the footage and correct our mistakes. We can take the positives from the game (Moeen) and develop them for the future. This is a great chance for us to consolidate our intentions of winning the world cup. I will remain as captain because it would be disruptive and detrimental for the team to change at this stage and I have the full backing of the coach and the board.”
      With luck I will borrow the De Lorean again for another trip but I’m not sure it can go far enough forward in time to get away from Sir Alistair, cult hero of the ECB. ( and no I did not want to replace the L in cult with any other letter)

    • Where have you been since the Ashes?? Do you think the post-Ashes stench has gone away because Cook has been anointed by the ECB????

      • Sorry if I have not been vehement enough in my views of Cook but I can assure you my feelings are not new. They started in November last year when I was in Aus watching the first test.

  • Well that was another tremendous innings from England. Without Moeen Ali’s knock it would have been an embarrassment. As Mike said he made 55 off 59 in his last innings. So obviously our great leadership pairing of captain and coach decided to drop him.

    As he seems like the only one who has a clue how to play spin bowling you leave him out against India for the first matches. Genius!!

    I guess Moeen is not quite the corporate image England are going for. Not quite right as the face of England’s finest sausages. Brent was telling us yesterday that Dear leader was getting his form back. I’m sorry but I can’t put up with much more of this. They seem to think we are all as stupid as fleet streets finest cricket writers.

    Oh well, maybe the bowlers can win it for England. And if they do, it will be all down to dear leaders great captaincy.

  • Thanks for all your comments so far.

    As I write, India are about to begin their reply.

    England will have some explaining to do, even if they win, about why they’ve achieved the same results with the bat for the third time in a row.

    Where might we be now if India had played with this intensity and focus in the last three tests?

    Normally these fag-end of summer ODI series stay below the radar. Not this time. Cook and Moores have too much negative equity.

    • The problem is as Nick Knight just pointed out that “England are moving further away from knowing their 1st ODI XI”

      In the midst of your anti Moores/Cook sentiment it’s worth remembering India as a factor in this, they are clearly more at ease in this format, they have outplayed ENG in all 3 disciplines in the ODI’s, quite the reverse of the test series.

      Let’s not forget India are the best ODI side in the world, we looked competitive against Sri Lanka earlier in the summer which is probably nearer our level.

      4th/5th place is about right for an English ODI team. Even the best XI English players and change of coach/captain/tactics might not affect this. – granted, it might make our defeats more fun to watch though!

      • “Old World porcupines (Hystricidae) have quills embedded in clusters, whereas in New World porcupines (Erethizontidae), single quills are interspersed with bristles, underfur and hair.”
        Which are you, the plodder, old world version aka Cook or the scintilating, new world version aka Ali??

      • But surely the basic starting point for any sports team is to get the best out of what you have got. Now that may not be good enough to beat a better side. But are we getting the best out of the talent English cricket has at the moment?

        While I Agee it may not be enough to beat India let alone win the World Cup. But surely we can do better than this? We have an opening batsman and captain who is not fit for purpose. We have a coach who is also not fit for purpose. He seems to have got the job for no other reason that he is part of the Flower/Downton axis.

        Call me cynical but it is almost as if the only reason he got the job as coach was so the ECB could extend another giant finger to KP and his supporters. Flower is beginning to resemble King Charles 2nd who had Oliver Cromwell’s dead body dug up and decapitated because of what he did to his father Charles 1st.

        England’s One day tactics are 25 years out of date. We have a laptop plugged into IBM which says get 230 and you will be fine. The ECB likes to boast about how much of Sky’s money (ie my money) they invest in the game. How about some coaches who know how to teach youngsters how to play spin bowling? Moeen showed what can be done today against spin and he is a not Don Bradman.

        Maybe we don’t have the talent, or the coaches. But I can’t help feeling decisions are being taken for non cricket reasons. But what do I know? I am just an outside cricket moron not an expert like Selvey.

    • Not many Kiwis have PaddyPower accounts ;) – at our home World Cup with our ODI squad I’d hope to make the final, and be severely disappointed if we missed the semi finals

  • This comment on cricinfo’s commentary;

    Edmund: “Have England thrown in the towel already, Dev? It appears they are already focused on the Ashes 2015 with scant regard for one-day cricket, and from a purist point of view who can disagree? This match is an irrelevance to the next Ashes series. India, however, seem to have had precisely the reverse aspiration with five-day cricket an irrelevance to their interests.”

    Problematic isn’t it in a number of ways?

    Surely the aim is to try and win as many games as possible, regardless. The phrase “purist” makes me want to scream in frustration.

    • That would be all very well if England hadn’t ruined the 2013/14 Ashes series by moving it to focus instead on the WC.

      • Good point Maxie, that’s a something I often forget, an important contributing factor to events over the past 18 months.

    • “It appears they are already focused on the Ashes 2015 with scant regard for one-day cricket, and from a purist point of view who can disagree?”

      No no no. Garbage. If this person is such a purist, how come he doesn’t mention that England and Australia ballsed up the Test schedule for 2012-15 for the sake of THIS WORLD CUP? And the knock-on effects left South Africa with three Tests in England in eight years, FFS!

      I am absolutely furious with people making this excuse already. They are letting the ECB off the hook for an unmitigated disaster that was driven entirely by commercial greed. If the Test re-organisation was carried out in order to prepare for the World Cup, the board should be held accountable for the side being such a shambles at this late stage. If, as many thought at the time, the World Cup argument was just a smokescreen for the ECB’s desire to play Australia and India on an endless loop, then the board should be criticised for its most egregious manifestation of sheer greed since Stanford. There is no pussy-footing middle ground where this is just an unfortunate configuration of circumstances. They created this abject mess and they should bloody well hang for it (figuratively speaking).

  • Here’s what Kevin Pietersen’s said on Twitter this afternoon:

    “You are seeing a young Indian side here in which the players are being schooled every year in the IPL.

    “Playing with and against other internationals for six weeks a year benefits every player. They smash the likes of Steyn, Johnson, Starc etc every week, which gives them a collective confidence to do it in international cricket”.

    Of course, it’s very much in his interests to big up the IPL. But in terms of the exposure it provides to the world’s best cricketers, he probably has a point.

  • Here’s testament to Graeme Swann’s attention to detail while on TMS duty (courtesy of the BBC OBO site):

    “The second half of Rahane’s knock has been magnificent and I assume the first half, while I was asleep, was just as good. I wish I hadn’t had my 40 winks because these two are a joy to behold.”

    • Whilst the point in a wider context, about mob mentality, is one that can be argued convincingly, conflating carefully argued criticism using empirical data over a period of time to state an opposing case, as a mob mentality with regards the case against Alistair cook as captain is plain wrong.

      Is Ed Smith the stupidest extremely clever man, in the world, when it comes to this matter?

      It’s not personal, just want the team to win as often as possible and all evidence points to the fact that we win less than we lose when Cook is captain, based on the last 12 months in all forms where he is captain.

      That article actually really irritated me.

    • Ed Smith is an idiot. He said this in the piece……..

      “After England’s defeat by India in the second Test at Lord’s, almost every leading voice in English cricket called for Alastair Cook to be sacked as captain. This quorum included the former England captains Mike Atherton, Michael Vaughan and Geoffrey Boycott. ”

      Mr Smith obviously never did counting at school. Because he names 3 people. So according to him 3 people make up ” every leading voice in English cricket. ”

      The truth Mr Smith is the vast majority of England’s leading voices did not call for Cooks head. It was only a small minority of “morons outside of cricket. ” Your attempt to re write history shows how clueless you are. The establishment and their tame media defended Cook to the rafters, and then lied about how the world was against him.

      Blatant dishonesty.

    • Appalling article. It ignores the fact Cook has been captain since 2012. It seems people want to date Cook’s captaincy from post the last ashes tour and draw a veil overall our woeful ODI form. If he survives as captain in both forms for much longer we really will have to assume he is completely undroppable.

  • This was posted by FustedBlush on Dmitri’s site, but I think needs repeating.

    Agnew’s comments (as recorded on the BBC Live commentary) for three dismissals but can you guess which related to Cook?:

    “In [blank]‘s defence, it could have gone anywhere.”

    “[blank] was all over the place.”

    “It’s a horrible shot … a tame end.”

    Hmmm

    Here’s a clue, the last one was Moeen.

    Agnew must think all England fans are morons. I don’t think Fleet Streets finest realise how unbelievable idiotic they are making themselves look.

  • Here’s Agnew on TMS:

    “I was someone who thoroughly supported Alastair Cook as Test captain this summer. But I don’t think he should be one-day captain. England need him refreshed next summer if they are to beat Australia in the Ashes. Cook has had a hard summer, and you may call me a traditionalist but the Ashes is the most important thing.”

    The problem is, should Cook resign from the ODI captaincy, TINA gets blown out of the water unless the new ODI captain is a non-test player, because that new skipper will soon acquire the authority and kudos to make him a viable candidate for the test captaincy.

    • you may call me a traditionalist but the Ashes is the most important thing.” Agnew.

      This prevalent attitude by county members and those inside cricket is why we continue to fail miserably in 50 over cricket.

      This makes me so very very very mad I want to punch myself in the face, lest I lash out at some innocent passer by.

      IF THAT IS THE CASE WHY DID WE COMPLETELY REJIGG OUR ENTIRE CALENDAR FOR THE WORLD CUP? WHY DO WE BOTHER WITH LIMITED OVER CRICKET?

      WHY NOT JUST NOT PLAY?

      Sorry.

      Correct me if I’m wrong but the point of playing professional sport is to try to win, right?

    • Isn’t there a belief that Hussain and Strauss relinquishing the ODI captaincy fatally undermined their Test captaincy and that is partly why Cook is determined to hang on?

      Morgan seems the annointed replacement (although I’ve seen little in his captaincy to justify this – I have seen him twice not bowl Moeen in T20s and blame Carberry dropping a catch for losing a match) and would seem not to threaten Cook’s Test captaincy. The question of the IPL will reappear with Morgan though – he will surely want to play there again? Yet again the failure to adjust to the new reality of the IPL with Pietersen looks ridiculously short-sighted.

      The ECB must come to terms with the IPL sooner or later – is it so difficult to clear the international calendar in April/May? Apparently so, because we are touring West Indies next year when the IPL is on so Gayle, Narine and others will presumably be missing and the tour devalued (although giving some England players a chance to puff up their averages).

  • Agnew:
    “I was someone who thoroughly supported Alastair Cook as Test captain this summer. But I don’t think he should be one-day captain. England need him refreshed next summer if they are to beat Australia in the Ashes. Cook has had a hard summer, and you may call me a traditionalist but the Ashes is the most important thing.”

    When you’ve lost even Aggers….

  • We have to bat for a minimum score of 275 runs. That means looking at a couple of balls and then it’s full bore. Boundaries. This game has been engineered in favour of the Asian batting nations. Dry pitches, fielding restrictions, pingy bats, two new white balls. When are we going to switch on to this?

    • “This game has been engineered in favour of the Asian batting nations”.

      I’ve just been watching Australia and South Africa and they didn’t seem to have too many problems. New Zealand aren’t too bad when they get a chance either.

      • They weren’t playing India, and even so, their selectors are not preserved in aspic. They select for the type of game they are playing and the changed conditions and regulations. This is not a short form of test cricket, it’s a longer form of 20/20.

        • During the winter, SA beat India 2-0 (one NR from rain) and NZ beat India 4-0 (one tie). Both series were played before the Tests, not just after India had been thrashed. The lowest score SA or NZ posted in those games was 271.

          I don’t disagree with your point about the England selectors – I disagree with your earlier apparent implication that ODI rule changes benefit a particular geographical region. By the way, SA’s ODI team isn’t that different to their Test team whereas Australia’s is so it shows there is no one selectorial recipe that determines success.

  • The best bit of prose that I’ve ever seen, (and I’m sure that you’ll all agree):
    “That point was underlined during the victorious third Test in Southampton, in which Cook made 165 runs (only once out) and captained a perfect England performance. The crowd took the opposite view to the newspapers that claim to represent England fans. Cook was cheered all the way to the middle at the toss, then greeted by a standing ovation when he returned to the pavilion 48 not out at lunch on the first day. The England coach, Peter Moores, conceded that he had never seen Cook more moved than after that spontaneous act of collective support. Another standing ovation followed when he walked off, having made 95. The atmosphere of the post-match victory ceremony was driven by deep respect for the England captain.”
    :)

    • The man is delusional……

      “The crowd took the opposite view to the newspapers that claim to represent England fans.”

      Has he read Pringle! Selvey? Agnew? Etheridge? and Tom Dick and Harry?

      He is just pulling Shit out of his backside. As I speak Lord Gower is doing his usual defence of Cook routine. He will go down with HMS Cook, and then magically resurface with the new captain.

    • I prefer this one:
      “If the England management, captain and selectors cannot see there is a burning issue that needs to be changed, then I am worried, angry and sad. If they start spouting rubbish about ‘not executing our plans’ then we really should be worried because sanity is not prevailing.”
      (G Swann – clearly a grasshopper member of the mob*)

      *That’s Ed Smith’s mixed metaphor, not mine.
      btw, I’d not seen that piece by the esteemed Mr Smith. I thought you were quoting a fairly lame parody piece until I searched for the source.

    • “The crowd took the opposite view to the newspapers that claim to represent England fans”.

      Yes, that’s always been Cook’s problem – a hostile press.

      Honestly, does Smith live on another planet.

      What he doesn’t mention is that the Ageas Bowl was only half-full, if that. By definition, a spectator prepared to spend £80 on a test ticket in this climate is obviously going to be happy with the status quo. And will cheer Cook. Smith spots no connection between the empty seats and the unhappiness of other, disillusioned supporters.

      And if Smith sees truth and insight in the reactions of massed spectators, what did he think when Ricky Ponting was booed at every English ground in 2009? Or when an injured Stuart Broad was booed to the crease at Adelaide last winter?

  • “They should be looking at ODI’S as extended 20/20.s and not a shortened format of test cricket”…..bloody well said!!!
    Humiliated by Australia, Sri Lanka and now India…..”In the name of God….Go!!!”

    • Colonel Blimp (Strauss) is on my TV telling me there is no point getting rid of Cook because he can’t really see changing the captain will make things any better.

      And Sky pay for this analysis?

  • Cook today: “I have played in Australia and have experience of being captain for three and a half years, in which time we have done some very good stuff. This is a heavy blip at the moment”.

    In fairness, he took us to the 2011 CL final. But under his captaincy England have lost their last four ODI series, over twelve months, and won only 3 of the last 16 completed matches.

  • Did I mention that I was out all afternoon and didn’t get to see our valiant bowling attack trying desperately to drag back another match from the ditch into which the laughingly named “batsmen” had thrown it.
    I didn’t miss much did I?
    Ed Smith’s article – there are no words to describe how a seemingly intelligent and educated person can write such a pile of drivel and still expect to be taken seriously as a cricket analyst.
    Cook – from tragedy to farce to comedy. The man is deluded and in need of a break.
    But not as much as we are all in need of a break from him.

  • I dislike it when people say the Ashes is the most important thing. It is special but all the other series and limited overs world cups are special too.

    The cricket World Cup is a great tournament: I loved the 1987 and 1992 tournaments. But some of the recent ones have has a few problems with the Zimbabwe issue, attendances at the West Indies version, and everyone moaning about the length of the tournament and the minnows inclusion. Perhaps it was because people became bored with 50 over ODIs as there were too many of them.

    England do not seem to be as crafty or intelligent as the other teams; maybe it is because the other teams have more IPL players.

    Maybe England should just pick a young fresh team with nothing to lose. It’s not like 1999 when England got knocked out in the group stage.

      • Ah, 1999 – staged, thoughtfully, in May. The opening ceremony took place almost in fog. And we got knocked out before the end of the football season.

        • What I should have said is that In 1999 England’s awful perfomance meant more because it was being hosted in England,live on free to air tv and maybe the World Cup was more important then! So England’s early exit ruined a chance to make cricket more popular in England.

  • I posted this on th Guardian.

    Listening to Botham after the match is annoying the hell out of me because for the first time in about forever I am forced to agree with him.

    Essentially he said toss most of them out and try all the young guns in the counties doing well, there is absolutely nothing to lose.

    • I think Botham is on the verge of self combusting about England. And who can blame him? He has to sit next to Lord Gower and listen to the ECB talking points being trotted out day after day.

      A lot of the media is going to have to decide if they want to keep in with the ECB or stop making themselves look ridiculous.

  • I think what annoys me most about the recent media coverage is the assumption that Cook has single handedly turned around the test team and his own test form. Every time I see a “Cook’s on-going selection as Test captain was vindicated by the stunning turn about in the India series” I die a little inside. A scratchy 95 and a win against a test side an average county XI could beat does not mean that all is well! It is almost like we are SO terrible at one day cricket that it makes our test form seem acceptable.

    On another note Cook’s statement along the lines of “It is very difficult for me to lead a side when my place is constantly being questioned” should be an indication that he should not be leading a side, not that people should stop questioning him. The fact that he cannot see this reflects that he has guzzled down the Kool Aid, and is a devotee of his own cult of celebrity.

    • Yes, this annoys me too. But in some ways this one day series has proved the media wrong. They were so quick to crow over the test turn around. Which as you say had nothing to do with Cook. But the media were so thrilled they had beaten back the mob, and that KP would not be coming back they went totally overboard. (See Ed Smiths idiocy above) and the numerous 5 page feature puff pieces in all the colour supplements.

      Now it turns out that Cook is not the genius they portrayed him as. They are left with great dollops of egg all over their face.

      Pat Murphy on BBC 5 live did a good interview with Cook. Cook was droning on about how no one in the team should think their place in the team was safe. And Murphy said ” well your place seems very secure.”

    • Come on, nowl, Dave, that 95 was one of the great innings of our time.

      Or to put it another way, he managed to hang around for a bit longer before getting out.

  • It was depressing to watch the Indian innings as an English man, although Rahane’s innings was a work of art beyond anyone on the English team. Cook seemed to think he could defend that total, presumably based on the stats provided by his puppet-master Moore. His only chance was to attack as he sometimes does in Test Matches when Moore tells him that it is time to post more than one close fielder. The tactics of Cook were superb as long as you wanted India to win. It was clueless and aimless stuff. The bowling was all very fast medium and didn’t Rahane relish it? Finn has become a fast-medium trundler whose run-up suggests he is carrying baskets of rocks on his hips. Woakes once used a slower ball, but I guess the stats say you should only use it once a year. The attack leader did not bowl his full complement – presumably because Cook was unaware that India were heading for an early finish. I am starting to think that Cook could not mow a lawn without Moores to give him instructions on how to cock it up. Where the changes of pace, the variety that is needed even more in Australia?

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